Adoption Law in Nevada

Did you know that adoption laws vary state by state and can be horribly confusing? In fact, in the state of Nevada, you are allowed to self-match, but you still have to work with an agency. I know it's horribly confusing, right? Well, lucky for us today, we're having a conversation with Kim Stewart, who is an adoption attorney in the state of Nevada. She's going to walk us through the process and all the confusing nuances, just like that one in our conversation.

Amanda: I am so excited to welcome him to the show so that she can help us understand more about adoption law in the state of Nevada. Kim, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really excited that you're here.

Kim: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Anytime I get to talk about adoption, I'm happy.

Amanda: Can you share a little bit more about yourself with the audience so they can get to know you a little bit better?

Kim: Sure. These are weird conversations these days because I can now say I've been practicing law for 20 years.

Amanda: Congratulations.

Kim: That makes me feel old. But it just said "double decade." But yes, I've been practicing law for 20 years now. I started in family law. 19 years ago, I did not last. I was an insurance defense attorney. Before that. But obviously, that only lasted one year in my career before I moved on to family law. So I have my own firm. I opened it in 2007. So that's also been trudging along for a lot of years. And I've been lobbying since 2004. So barely into my legal career, I started lobbying. And I've lobbied for a significant amount of things in the state of Nevada, all surrounding adoption and assisted reproduction. family law, too. I mean, we don't have any bait to defend the bigger picture of family law, but we do have some very, very specific items within adoption and assisted reproduction.

Nevada Adoption Law: A Look at Changes and Unique Features, Including Self-Matching and Multi-Parent Adoption

Amanda: Awesome. Yeah, we should probably touch on assisted reproduction as well throughout this episode. I didn't really think about that as we were kind of preparing. But we can definitely talk about that, too. So before we dive into assisted reproduction, I'd love it if we just kind of focused on adoption law in particular and opened up our conversation with a general understanding or overview of what adoption law is like. In the state of Nevada, again, we have, you know, folks in our audience that are just starting out and those that may have been waiting for a while, but I'd like them to have just an understanding of the process from your perspective.

Kim: Well, we've made some significant changes in Nevada law over the past decade. We started making some tweaks and changes and are hoping to rewrite our entire adoption chapter at some point. So it's a little more user-friendly; I would like it where people can kind of go in and almost do their adoptions on their own, you know, be able to read it and understand the procedures. Unfortunately, we're not quite there yet. But in Nevada, with the changes we've made, we've made it easier to have an adoption in the state of Nevada. So you don't have to be the petitioner, and the adoptive parents don't have to reside in the state to have the petition filed in this state. The child could have been here but placed with them in another state, but we can still complete the adoption here. That has changed adoption in Nevada dramatically. It's really made it a lot smoother. We still have some timeframes that we need to look at, like if the child has been gone for five years, Nevada no longer has jurisdiction over that child. But other changes we've made We used to say things like, "Any two adults may adopt Nevada." After the last session in Nevada, we can have more than two people adopt a child and be parents of a child. That is extremely difficult from a private placement perspective, but unnecessarily, I need your help in that too. But it really helps in the stepparent scenario, where you've got a stepparent and there really are three people raising a child, to bring that parent in as an adoptive parent. And we're one of the few states that have gone that far. It's one of the first statutes that looks like that. So we're very cutting-edge in Nevada when it comes to adoption. You know, we have a lot of the same generic rules that a lot of states have: the adoptive parent needs to be at least 10 years older than the person they're adopting. That is really kind of looking more at rules where people, instead of getting married, want to adopt; we've kind of worked around some of that stuff. But those are easy requirements, especially for somebody looking for a replacement for a young child with them; they're going to meet that requirement. One of the other big-picture items is that if the child is over 14 years of age, the child needs to consent to the adoption. You know, at that point, we see them as having some autonomy as their children still, but if they're going to have a forever placement that late in their lives, we want them to participate in the conversation with the court. But you know, in the big picture, Nevada is what we call an "agency state." And so you'll go to some states where attorneys can do matching for a fee and do the adoption. And they can do interstate compact work; they can work on moving children between states, but you have to be a licensed agency to do most of that work. So the attorneys cannot, and I cannot, make money off of matching you; you do have to utilize an agency in order to do that matching. Now, if you find somebody on your own, you're fine. You don't need an agency per se, but you still have to have a home study. So there's, I think we're going to go through some scenarios like that, some very specific scenarios, versus me getting into it right now. And I'm talking about the big picture. But probably the thing to always remember to go back to with Nevada that's so unique is that agency state part of it; it takes attorneys out of a big portion of what's done, which is quite honestly very unique and very different from most states.

Amanda: That is very unique and different. and you're exactly right. So the follow-up question to that is, if you are self-matching, how does it work? But before we dive into that, I think it might be helpful just so that we, you know, kind of level out everyone's different ways you can match. And then the state of Nevada would allow you to work with an agency, and they could actually match your adoption for you. And so that would look like you choosing an adoption agency and kind of following their steps and processes. And then, when that adoption is ready to be finalized, or at a certain other point throughout their process, they would engage the assistance of an adoption attorney to complete all of the legal steps. And when that happened, if you were working with an adoption attorney, you said, "Your adoption attorneys cannot match you." But then you can help them, potentially through self-matching or in agency form. If they've already found someone on their own, is that correct?

Kim: Yeah, if they've already found someone or they're just coming to me asking about what agency they should work with, I can help them with that. I can get them to an agency. I just can't do what people think of with agencies, which is, I can't put an advertisement out there for you to find somebody to take money from you for trying to match somebody. So if somebody came to me and said, "I have a baby," I could tell a family about that and say that I couldn't make any money off of that match. So I have two hands off if I do that. and it happens. I mean, you know, if somebody says, "Hey, I want to get my baby up, and they know me and trust me," I might, you know, take some steps to say, "Well, I've heard of these families that are looking, but I can't make any money off of it." I can't do anything. I can't get too deep into it. But if they came to me and said, "I found somebody who wants to give up her baby," then I could assist them; I could take them through the steps. I can't do the home study. If it's going to be an interstate placement, we still have to involve an agency for those two steps. But I can get them to the agency; I can help them. I can navigate them in that direction.

Amanda: That totally makes sense. So again, just as a baseline, you know, the typical process to your point is to get a home study, right? So if you're working with a social worker or an agency, they're going to have someone that they suggest to us more than likely, and they're going to do all the necessary background checks and all of those things and deem your home, quote unquote, open for adoption, right? meaning that you're kind of approved to be a hopeful adoptive family. And we're going to go through kind of the matching process either with an agency or on your own, and from an agency perspective, they're going to have certain services that they can provide to an expectant parent that maybe if you're working on your own, you're not going to have right some social services, maybe some counseling services, and things of that nature, that depending upon your adoption situation may be really needed in that particular situation, then, you know, you're going to match with an expected family and then go through the legal process aspect of it.

Kim: Yeah, so the general rule in the state of Nevada is that we're going to use a word that no one's going to understand. But if you are within the third degree of consequence, we have this nice little chart that says what degree of relationship your family members have with you. So your children are, you know, the first degree of consequence at your parents are within that first degree bubble of consequence at and then as you go out to aunts, and uncles, great grandparents, and further out, the degrees go out. So in Nevada, if you are related to the person who is giving you permission and wants you to adopt their child, then we would look at those degrees of consequence to decide whether you have to have a home study, but it's really 30 degrees, not very far out. So it's a really close relationship. So most adoptions require a home study, quite honestly.

Understanding Adoption Advertising Laws in Nevada: Navigating the Do's and Don'ts of Self-Matching and Independent Adoption Promotion

Amanda: That makes sense. So say I am looking as a hopeful adoptive and lean in to match on my own meeting that I am sharing my desire to adopt. In some cases, I'll call them freeways just for, you know, easy conversation at the moment. Some things, like maybe I'm sharing a flyer, you know, in a laundromat; maybe I'm sharing it with my hairdresser or my OB; or maybe I'm even putting it on Facebook, Instagram, or Tik Tok; if I'm self-matching in sharing my profile and desire to adopt in that manner, is that something that's allowed in your state or not? 

Kim: You cannot advertise in the state of Nevada for placement or for finding somebody without being an agency. So that's advertising; now we'll talk about the internet in a second because it's a different beast. It's a different beast; that's a different dimension. So the old-school form of advertising—go to the radio, go to a TV station, put out flyers in the state—you know, what we used to do for advertising? Absolutely, you've got to be an agency to do that; it's a misdemeanor. If you advertise, what they're looking at is the wording that we have: if you advertise, you can place a child, and it's really going after the people that say they can place, so the independents don't usually get hit hard. But you know, I can't advise anybody not to do it. It's just not a good idea. You might have some loopholes in our advertising rules because you're just an independent person, but it's not advisable to do it here. On the internet, we say that a child placement agency can be included in an advertisement, and we see what they can and can't do. Now, the internet is an exception to the rule because we can't control internet advertising from coming into our state. There's no state boundary, right on the internet, that says, "Whoa, Nevada, you know, but if an average agency were to add Nevada, they could get in trouble if they're not licensed in Nevada." An independent person who just places it on the internet is not going to get in trouble in Nevada for doing that, because there's no way you didn't walk into our state and advertise such a nuanced thing. I hate giving this to the general public this way because it sounds complicated, right? but we're pretty strict. I mean, Nevada is pretty strict, which is the way to look at it on the advertising part of it. But put a profile out there. And if you found somebody in Nevada by doing an internet profile, you're not necessarily going to get in trouble. Yeah, going after agencies that shouldn't be, that aren't licensed, that are advertising in the state, or individuals who try to facilitate matches That's what they're going after in Nevada.

Amanda: That totally makes sense. Yeah, I know I often have a lot of folks in my community that will say I'm creating a Facebook profile that's specific to adoption, and I'm just sharing it on Facebook, Instagram, or Tiktok that I'm hoping to adopt. And you know, I'm sharing information about my life. And I often tell people, "Well, first you have to go and actually get in a relationship with an attorney; create an attorney-client relationship." They're right and separate from what we're doing here, simply for informational purposes, but in that they can advise in your state whether or not it's legal. Because of your point, it is highly nuanced. In most states, when you are creating a profile and sharing things, basically for free, meaning you're not paying the social media platforms advertising dollars to put behind sharing your profile more often, that becomes one of those gray areas, and most attorneys are like, "In this state, it's okay." No, no, no, stay away from that; it's definitely not allowed.

Kim: Well, and so if somebody says to you, "Look, I'll help you find somebody to match with," I'm going to go, "You know, so it's not truly independent, but you're not working with an agency." It's not a lawyer, right? And even as a lawyer, I can't do the advertising; it has to be done by an agency in the state of Nevada. But if somebody says, "I'll go place ads for you," they're the ones committing the misdemeanor. And that's what's not proper; they cannot go take money, try to match people in the state of Nevada through advertising and placement of ads, and charge you money for it without it being a crime in the state of Nevada.

Amanda: "And that is really important." Which is why, for those of my group that are watching, when they asked me, "Will you please add to this state?" I'm like, "Nope, I'm not allowed to." 

Kim: Stay away from the state for that. I do think they'll have statutes. I mean, this is esoteric, but I do think they're old-fashioned. I do know, as you know, that the edits and the changes to those have not been made differently. We haven't looked at it in a long time. And so there's some room for work there. but that's not there yet. 

Amanda: That definitely makes sense. And that is why, quite honestly, you'll see a lot of high-profile companies out there. They'll say that they'll help you build your profile, and then they'll teach you ways that you can share it. You should then go and talk to an adoption attorney and make sure that you understand the laws in your state before you share them yourself. Which is honestly the entire point of independent matching, which is that you're doing some of the work and the work that you can do yourself to save yourself money, but I always recommend folks not to shortcut the support that expectant parents need, right? That's still really important. And that's the other aspect that agencies tend to provide that is different from the self-matching or independent route itself.

Kim: Yeah, and agencies that are out there doing their own advertising are following the rules, or you're hoping they are for each state, right? And you're not going to get in trouble for hiring somebody who is the one who committed the crime. That's right, that violated the law. So that's one thing to know if you want to hire somebody or if you're giving yourself a shield. But also, when you're, you know, trying to do independent magic through the internet, it's a social beast, and you don't know where your child is going to potentially come from or what state you're going to be in. And so, you know, you can't just go hire a lawyer in every single state just in case you accidentally land with a child in one of those states, right? So that's an impossibility for you. It's also the reason, you know, that our statutes are more geared towards that not being a violation; that's not what we're going after.

Amanda: That totally makes sense. So we've touched on a lot thus far. So I'm going to kind of give a recap to make sure everybody's on the same page with us. So the general process when you are hoping to adopt in the state of Nevada is, first and foremost, making sure that you are home study approved. And then once your home study is approved, you're moving into preparing to match, which is kind of what I would call it, right? You're working on your profile; you're working on making sure you have all the right partners lined up. And then you're going into the matching phase and ultimately into the finalization phase of the adoption once you've matched. And so obviously, there are a bunch of nuances and little steps in between, depending upon the way you're, you know, intending to match your adoption, but at a high level, that's generally the process itself. So let's talk about some of the more specific legal questions that our audience typically has when we're trying to get a baseline understanding of adoption laws in those states. Can you talk to us a little bit about the kind of putative father and the whole birth father aspect of the adoption process in your state?

Navigating Putative Father and Finalization of Adoption in Nevada: Understanding the Nuances

Kim: Yeah, so this is a weird time to be talking to you about it because we are hopefully moments away from adopting the new Uniform Parentage Act 2017 version in Nevada. I'm in the middle of lobbying, and right now, whatever I say today on the change before this airs.

We need everybody to be very cautious that Nevada is on the cusp of a dramatic change as to who is a parent and who is not a parent in the state of Nevada, as well as ways to become a parent. So we do not have a putative father registry in Nevada. The UPA that Nevada is looking at will not have that. So some of you may be in states where you're familiar where there's a registry with the state government for names to be registered as potential parents. In Nevada, we do not have that; we have a very simplistic, old-fashioned, and quite frankly, at the moment, version of parentage in Nevada. If you are one, if you're genetically related to the child, you can be a father or mother. If you are married to a woman who gives birth to a child, you are presumed to be the parent of that child. If you're hesitating because we've got a lot going on right now, there are a lot of changes right now. But kind of a standard type of stuff, we do not have a solid de facto parent, or that's a very complicated legal term to give to people. But as you put it, you held yourself out as a parent by saying that she must be a parent under statute, and we do have that holding out language in assisted reproductive technology. And so right now, at the moment, we have to start with just looking at, "Is she married?" And who is that person? We've got to give notice to that person, and we're going to terminate them. Whether they're genetically related to the child or not, there's a presumption of parentage. We've got to look at the birth certificate and say, "Is there another parent on this birth certificate?" And I'm not saying Father, because in Nevada, we are so gender neutral with everything we've got. And we've got a lot of progressive ways for same-sex parents to be on birth certificates, so that there may be another parent on there, through assisted reproductive technology. And so, if we look at the birth certificate, is there another parent on there? Is there, isn't there? No, if there is, we've got to give notice, and we've got to work on terminating that parent. If there is not, then we are now talking to the genetic mother who gave birth to the child about what other potential parents there could be. And anybody she knows who could potentially be the parents of that child The courts—you know, there are a million scenarios that arise with that. And that is, in every single state, you've got different situations. Potentially, she says, "Well, it was a one-night stand, and I don't know who he was, right?" In that scenario, we've still got to quiz her and see what information she might have that may still potentially lead to that person, so we can terminate them. In terms of the future of Nevada, there's going to be a lot more to it. It's going to be much more sophisticated and have a lot more procedural roles and abilities for somebody to say, "Even though I'm married, I deny my parentage," without having to have an actual termination of parental rights. That excites me; we're not there yet. I want that so bad. That's part of the Uniform Parentage Act. Because often we're in these scenarios where someone's like, "Look, I'll do the genetic test, but I'm married, but I, you know, I'm going to deny my parentage." I would love for him to be able to do that. But right now in Nevada, we have to do a full termination of parental rights for that person because of the presumption.

Amanda: "So it makes sense." Yeah. I know it is so nuanced that it makes it hard to talk about it and to summarize it.

Kim: "Really fast, right?" Yeah. But Nevada statutes, like I said, are very, very old-fashioned. I mean, they're just that original concept of what people thought of as parents that's still in our statutes, and they haven't been updated except for reproductive technology and other things. So we do have a simplified process for two moms to end up on the birth certificate. They don't have to have an adoption in order for there to be another mother on the birth certificate. So in that scenario, we've got to terminate that mother.

Amanda: That makes sense. Yeah. So when it comes to another question that is asked really often, how does revocation and then ultimately finalization work in the state of Nevada? And can you also explain the difference as you talk about how or what those really mean in your state?

Kim: Yeah, so the genetic mother cannot terminate her parental rights through consent until 72 hours after the birth of the child; there really is almost no revocation of that consent. It's got to be for fraud or duress. I mean, somebody lied to her about what she was signing. "Buyer's remorse" is what I call it; she can't and won't revoke that consent. We've got relinquishment, and then we've got consent. So consent is specific consent. So the biomother, or the genetic parent, is signing a consent to specifically choose a family that they want their child adopted by, versus a relinquishment to social services for abuse and neglect. Right, basically, they're in a scenario where social services are going to take complete custody of that child. Are the agencies going to take custody of that child without a specific placement? You're just saying, "This is the best for my child." I'm not going to go seek out a family; I'm going to place my child where an agency can do that. The revocation of that for the birth mother is almost impossible; it's been done. And we've done it in scenarios where it's proper, but it's really, like I said, a lot of bad luck, bad behavior at the hospital, a lot of duress, and a lot of improper actions. On the father's side of things, a genetic parent can consent to termination of their parental rights before the baby is born; we don't have to wait until after for that. If he's not agreeing to that, then we still have to file; we still have to wait until after the birth of the child to continue to pursue the termination of parental rights in full. We can start things ahead of time, but we just can't; it's not going to happen till after the birth of the child. He's got a few exceptions to being able to revoke the consent that he gave before the birth of the child. And it has to do it, sir, because of its surroundings. And I'm hesitating on this, because this is all something that needs to be changed in the law; there's a serious equal protection problem here, where mothers and fathers are not being treated the same in these scenarios. But it has to do with risk if they get married after the birth of the child. And then that presumption almost kind of backpedals itself back into place. She doesn't have that benefit under her consent role. But he insists on revoking his. And so, you know, you really just say that it's a tight window; it's a very tight window under Nevada law. So once you get those in place, there's a lot of confidence—a significant amount of confidence. But when you don't have those in place, your confidence needs to stay in check until we can get the termination of parental rights or prove that they are unfit to be parents.

Amanda: That makes sense. So then, when it comes to actually finalizing the adoption, are there additional steps after the revocation period in order to finalize it? 

Kim: Barely. I mean, the only real step is the filing of the petition for adoption. And setting a hearing: the court does require hearings in the state of Nevada, but bless COVID In some ways, because Zoom is our standard protocol for an adoption hearing these days, you may or may not have to actually come into the state of Nevada for your hearing; most likely not. In fact, I think they're going to start making that a permanent decision unless people ask for an in-person adoption hearing, which we have people wanting because of the pomp and circumstance and the joy of it. But if you know we've got people in other states and the child was placed in another state, we don't have to require you to come back to the state of Nevada for that hearing. But there is a six-month rule for social services, where they continue to monitor and we cannot finalize the adoption until six months. That is different from consent or a relinquishment of the ability to revoke those. You can't revoke a relinquishment, but you can revoke consent. The six-month rule is not about that; it's about social services. The child needs to be placed in your home for six months, and we need to see how the child thrives. I'm very, very honest with you; I personally don't even know of one where social services have already done the home study and have already decided you're a great placement for the child in your home. Maybe you get busted for some major crime during those six months, and they're going to take the child back. You know, like human trafficking or something.

Amanda: "You do something really bad." Yeah.

Kim: "No, it's a traffic violation; you know, it's not going to be a parking ticket." But there's a possibility you could screw up in those six months, I guess. but I've never seen one. I've never seen that happen. didn't mean somebody else; something else got screwed up earlier on, probably because they didn't realize you weren't a good fit. But for true finalization, we have to wait for that six-month rule. We have some exceptions for, again, the stepparent, family-related adoptions, and that third-degree consequence of that terrible word. We have some exceptions for that. We're also looking at messing around with that timeline, too. But right now, it's six months before we can finalize. Okay, that's good. Honestly, by the time you get that baby home, everybody's worked out all the kinks on everything we file. We wait for the court's calendar before we can get on it. Six months go by quickly. It's not a big deal. 

Amanda: So before we shift into assisted reproductive, if you're okay with talking about that and just want to ask if there's any other, you know, things that you think are really important for hopeful adoptive families to know if they're just starting out their adoption process when it comes to adoption law in your state.

Kim: For Nevada, no, not a whole lot more. I think the biggest thing is that people get really upset when they call my office and I say, "Have you talked to an agency?" I mean, I will talk to you, I will consult with you, and I will help you, you know, figure out what agency you want to go to. But when you're an independent match and you say I'm not using an agency and I don't want to, you still have to have that home study, and I can't help you with that. I can't make a home study happen for you without the engagement of an agency. Now, when you talk to those agencies, it's important to say, "Hey, what's your fee for when you're matching somebody versus when you're just doing the home study?" Because you shouldn't be paying a full fee to an agency in Nevada if you self-matched, you should only be paying for the specific services you're needing, which is the home study. You may need interstate compact assistance for placement of the child out of the state of Nevada between states, and you most likely will if that's what you're doing. And unless you reside in Nevada, get them to par it down and tell you what they're charging you for it because they're not, and you're not paying them to go match for you. So it should be a discounted rate. Unfortunately, studies are probably one of the most prohibitive items in an adoption, in my opinion, especially if you're doing an independent match. We're looking at grant programs, we're looking at options in Nevada, and just now Nevada is trying, we're trying, and we're looking at things that possibly we could do on that. We're not there yet. But you're going to need to use them, and I can't do anything about that. I'm very proud of you for finding somebody independently matching, thinking it's, you know, a great deal. Just remember, though, that when you independently match, there are some things that you're going to need to do on your own—a little bit of investigative work—to see what you're really getting into with this child because you didn't have an agency give you the full background on that genetic parent who gave birth and what the scenario is when you independently match. The biggest missing element when you don't have an agency engaged yet is telling me about the other genetic parent. Tell me what you know. And they go, "Well, we don't know anything." And I go, "Well, you may already be in for trouble," and one of the things agencies do is dig into that storyline. We can't just tell the court we don't know. We have to tell the court more; we have to try more. So don't get frustrated that it still includes an agency even though I was an independent match. That's the hardest part for Nevada.

Amanda: Yeah, I will say I feel like in the adoption industry as a whole. There are some really bad actors that have given, you know, certain services a really bad name, which I think has led to the kind of introduction, if you will, of independent matching and self-matching beyond just the friend of a friend type of scenario, right? I think, you know, that type of situation Sure, yeah, that's lasted for generations; you know, someone knows someone, and then they've just kind of connected and then worked, you know, to follow the state law in their particular state. But I fundamentally don't believe that all agencies are bad; I do believe that they, you know, do this work honestly because they understand how to navigate these difficult situations. And there's really a good benefit to agencies, but it's about finding the right agency. And if you can't find the right agency in your area or you're just coming across these bad actors, then you can replicate the agency model yourself by pulling in different services, again, based upon the law in your state, but you could bring in a social worker to help you, you know, form relationships, get the right type of background, and teach you different things as it relates to getting social services. 

Kim:  You can do that in other states; you can do that in about a worker worker; these agencies have I've been told that social workers are under very specific criteria in terms of background and experience, but you do have to hire them at the end of the day in Nevada; that's just the be all and end all. I can't circumvent it. But you're right—not all agencies are bad. The big problem we have in Nevada is not the quality of our agencies; it's the number of them we don't have. You know, it's like when somebody has an independent match and I send them off and say, "You've got to get your home study going; you're going to be so far behind if you don't, because the timing of your home study helps." It can be a big problem. If you wait until the day the baby's born to start your home study, we're already behind the eight ball big time. And they call agencies, and they're all busy. And they're trying to get a home study, then it's, you know, if you do it now, that's my biggest advice to you: do it now and have it in Wait, because not hiring an agency to match does not avoid that part of it. So, and no, you know, for the bad actors that are out there. That's the reason some of these strange laws get developed. And when you look at Nevada and go, "Gosh, dang, that advertising rule," it's like, "Well, something happened." They didn't just appear in our statutes for no reason. Yeah. There's a storyline behind it.

Nevada Adoption and Surrogacy Laws: Insights from a Family Law Attorney

Amanda: It's ultimately to protect the hopeful adoptive families and the expectant families. Yeah, bad actors. Yeah, exactly. So as we transition into just maybe a quick overview, excuse me, of the assisted reproductive technology law in your state, can you just tell us a little bit about how that works? Is it really talking about surrogacy? Is it really talking about embryo adoption or donation? Can you give us a high-level overview of what that means?

Kim: A lot of times I have a dual consultation with them—which direction? Should you go? Are you getting frustrated in the adoption world? Or are you getting frustrated in the surrogacy world and want to go the other direction? I think it's valuable for any adoption clients to just have an eye on the ball for both and at least an understanding in case they ever need to switch directions. You know, assisted reproductive technology is something we look at globally as anything having to do with genetic donation, so that's eggs, embryos, sperm, or surrogacy. That's kind of the two big bulbs, bowls, or however you want to talk about them, that we talked about when we were in the donation bowl. You know, Nevada rewrote all of its reproductive statutes in 2013. So even though we don't have the new UPA, we have very modern, up-to-date reproductive statutes. I lobbied on my behalf for all of them. They're there. I'm responsible for all of them. But in any state, really, when you're talking about sperm donation, you're fine. Every state has a good old-fashioned sperm donation statute. We were able to freeze sperm before we knew scientifically how to freeze embryos. So those statutes exist everywhere. And if you're a donor and you have the intent to be a donor, then you're not a parent. And if you have the intent to receive it, you will be the parent of that genetic material if you utilize it. So if you're talking about donations and you need that, that doesn't mean you're necessarily looking at adoption, either, because you probably can still conceive. Now, you may be looking at donor material for use in surrogacy, but in this picture, what we're talking about are people who can't conceive. We're trying to have a child. We're talking about the surrogacy bowl. And so when we talk about surrogacy in Nevada, where we have a wonderful surrogacy statute, the biggest rule that you need to know is that you cannot use your surrogate's own genetic material. So you either need to use your sperm and eggs or you need to use donors, but you cannot use surrogates. Other than that, Nevada is wide open; you just need a contract before she becomes pregnant. before we do the embryo transfer procedure. Both sides have to be represented by an attorney. That contract has to be notarized. And there are a few requirements as to what goes into the contract itself. And then, once you're pregnant, we go to court, we prove to the court that it's a real surrogacy, and the court enters an order that you're the parent upon the birth of your child. There is no revocation; she cannot take it back. She cannot change her mind. That is the biggest difference between it and adoption, other than the genetic part of it. But there is no way, oh no, she could change her mind within 72 hours after the birth of the child. Right? Yeah, she can't; it's not her child. She'll never be able to change her mind. It's expensive. Surrogacy can be far more expensive than adoption. But if you have multiple failed adoptions and add up those costs, it's not always more expensive than adoption. because of the cumulative effect of it, right? The big failure that can come with surrogacy is if she doesn't get pregnant if the transfer doesn't work, and that happens but not all the time. But reproductive technology is not cheap, or at least it is not certain to be cheap. I don't blame them. They're the most cutting-edge area of medicine there is out there, so they have to stay more on top of it than any other area. But there's a big price point, and it's very feasible. Usually the conversation I'm having is, like I said, about failed adoptions of bioparents who are genetic parents. I'm trying not to use the word "genetic" anymore because "bio" has not worked in our statutes for a while. genetic parents changing their minds. They've had to go through the wringer. They can't seem to get matched with a child. They can't seem to find one. They're just getting more and more frustrated and trying to decide if they're going to switch gears to surrogacy.

I think the better path is always, if there is any possibility that you may want to do surrogacy, to look at it on the front end versus waiting till you've had all that money out there. Not everybody fails at adoption. Not all bioparents or genetic parents changed their minds, but it is a viable alternative option for people. and Nevada is very progressive on it. Now, all states in the US are progressive on surrogacy. And that is a dramatic difference in the laws from state to state on surrogacy, more so than an adoption. Adoption. At the end of the day, the baseline of an adoption procedure isn't dramatically different, but the steps and how you get there are. But adoption is allowed in every single state, right? Surrogacy is not allowed in every single state. So there are your differences. But the big categories people should be looking at if they're looking at the laws, which they should look at and adopt, are whether it's gender specific, meaning whether you can have same-sex couples adopt or not, or whether you can have a same-sex couple utilize surrogacy or not, whether marriage is an element, and whether two people adopting or two people utilizing surrogacy have to be adopted or married. I mean, in Nevada, for both adoption and surrogacy, you do not have to be married. I can have two people adopt and not be married. I could use surrogacy and not be married. But those are probably the biggest categories of what you're looking at from the difference from state to state. And if you are an opposite-sex married couple, we're just not going to have that issue with adoption. You're going to be pretty darn safe everywhere you go. But if you fit into one of the other categories (unmarried, same gender), you need to pay attention to both categories.

Amanda: That's super helpful to have, you know, a kind of general understanding of both sides, if you will. I often tell my clients that I think they really should do their research on multiple methods of matching. And if they're specifically deciding adoption is the route, then they ought to consider, again, based upon the state law in their state. What are the different areas that you can use when trying to match? Right? Can you work with an attorney and an agency in your state? Or can you, you know, try to work with an agency but also share it on your own? But I love your point that if you are considering surrogacy, you really need to spend the time and energy researching that on the front side before you go into the adoption realm. Because you're right, you can, you know, end up spending as much in, you know, adoption or private adoption, whatever you want to call it, if you're not careful, or even if you are, if you have failed adoptions that are just simply out of your control, that could definitely put you in the same price range very quickly. Surrogacy can also be genetically based, which can be a big part of it. If genetics is important to you and you want some kind of genetic link between you and your child, surrogacy is going to be the only way you can go about that.

Kim: You know, it's an option that's out there in the surrogacy world, but we do not have licensing for agencies yet. Well, let me make an exception. York has just passed a very massive rewrite of their statutes for that, but from a federal level and most state levels, you know, every other state, we don't have a licensing mechanism for an agency. So we don't in our world, and we try not to call them agencies in surrogacy because agency in the adoption world comes with a very specific connotation of the type of licensing that it has behind it. We call it a matching program on the surrogacy side of things, or we try to, but I cannot get those words out of my mouth because it's just easier and faster to say than a matching program. But just know that another difference is that, you know, the adoption arena has developed far longer in the law over a much longer period of time and is very concrete. And in the matching program, World of Surrogacy, it's new; it really is new; it's such a different mechanism. But it's a very successful mechanism that is going to grow by leaps and bounds in the United States. not necessarily internationally. But we have a lot of international clients that come in to utilize surrogates in the United States.

Amanda: That's interesting. Well, thank you again for the breakdown of that. As we wrap up our conversation today, I just want to see if there's anything else you'd like for, you know, hopeful adoptive parents to keep in mind as they begin their journey.

Kim: There are options; you can do it; just stick to it. I get so many people that feel defeated because they're just too afraid because it's such a complicated system, but you know, resources such as your videos are out there; there are resources. So just dig in and keep at it; you know, becoming a parent will get you there. 

Amanda: Where can the audience go to connect with you if they're in the state of Nevada or considering adopting from the state of Nevada? 

Kim: The quickest and easiest way is through our website. It's www.lawyersforfamilies.com. and just go there; that's the easiest way. If you're already watching a video on the internet, I assume you can get there. 

Amanda: We'll be sure to link it in the show notes as well to make it easy for folks to find you. Kim, it's just been a phenomenal time connecting with you. I've learned so much from our conversation. And I really do appreciate everything you do for our community, especially for the adoption community in the state of Nevada. We're really lucky to have you.

Kim: Oh, thank you. I appreciate you getting this information out to the public.

Amanda: Thanks. Wasn't that amazing? I mean, who knew that you could actually self-match your adoption while staying legally compliant by using an adoption agency? That is so confusing, but so important to know. You don't want to accidentally put your adoption opportunity in jeopardy or be less efficient in your adoption journey because you don't properly understand the steps in that state. Speaking of understanding the steps and being efficient in your adoption journey, if you need help, head on over to myadoptioncoach.com/program so you can learn more about how we can work together in your adoption journey step by step. Remember, my friend, you are worthy of support, and I'm just a message away. I'll see you soon, friend.