Are you trying to decide between foster care adoption and private adoption? Or are you just confused about the differences in the process? If so, today's conversation is going to be incredibly helpful for you. Today I'm having a conversation with Jonathan, who is an adoption attorney in the state of Arizona. And while the information he shares with us is Arizona-specific, if you live in another state, you're still going to find this incredibly valuable because he walks you through some of the most commonly asked questions as it relates to foster care, adoption, and private adoption.

Amanda: Okay, so before we dive into our conversation with Jonathan, I just want to make our standard disclaimer that this does not create an attorney-client relationship. Obviously, it is just for informational purposes. Now let's welcome Jonathan to the show. Jonathan, thank you so much for being willing to join us today.

Jonathan: My pleasure. Thank you.

Amanda: I would love it if you could share just a little bit more about your background with our audience.

Jonathan: Certainly. Well, I originally come from Ohio, and I currently live in Arizona, where I practice primarily law concerning adoption, representing foster parents. My background in law goes all the way back to 1986. When I got my license as an attorney in Ohio, I moved to Florida and did a lot of mediations and collaborative kinds of discussions before relocating to Arizona. When I relocated here, my wife, who was a teacher, had a teacher friend who was in the process of adopting a child and needed an attorney. And she came to my wife in tears and said, "Does your husband do adoptions? And I told my wife, I'll get back to her in an hour. Now I read the law from cover to cover in its title eight here in Arizona and said, Sure, and I haven't looked back. I've done probably 1000s At this point in time, adoptions involve adoptions involving foster parents as well as private placements and stepparent adoptions, and I love what I do. So thank you for having me today.

Amanda: Awesome. Well, thank you. And thank you for sharing that story with us. I find that most adoption attorneys that I come across have some sort of story about why they got into adoption. And I love to hear that you have that connection with your wife's friend that really brought you in because I think it helps you understand the adoption process from a little bit different perspective, right?

Jonathan: Oh, no question. Absolutely. In fact, my wife was adopted as an infant. So I have been through absolutely So I've been through the search that she's done to find relatives—biological relatives—to find out a little bit more about her background. Wow,

Foster Care and Adoption in Arizona: A Comprehensive Guide

Amanda: That's awesome. Well, so you touched upon it in your intro that you not only handle private adoptions but also handle foster care adoptions in the state of Arizona. So I'd love for us to structure our conversation today to focus first on foster care, get a kind of baseline understanding for our audience, and then move into private adoptions. Does that work for you?

Jonathan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Foster care in Arizona is such a necessary and wonderful thing. Here in Arizona, we have anywhere from 13 to 14,000 children that are in the care of the state at any given time. And we need foster parents. As a foster parent, your role is to love and nurture that child and to really work with the Department of Child Safety, which is Arizona's child safety organization, to reunify that child with its parents or with its family, if possible. The guiding principle in Arizona and probably across the nation is what's in the best interests of that child. As a foster parent, you are responsible for the 24/7 care of that child. The department will assist you with arranging for medical providers; you are paid a small sum, a subsidy or a supplement, for the purpose of providing for the child. But that's really not the goal for most of my foster parents. That's not the goal either. The goal is to really give of themselves; many of them hope at some point to adopt, which is absolutely the way a lot of those foster situations go when a parent's rights have been terminated by them. court. In other words, once the parents have gone to court and a finding of abuse or neglect has been made, the parents rights are severed. And at that point, the state will first look to the foster parents to see if they're in a position to adopt. You can be a foster parent if you're a relative; you can be an unlicensed foster parent; you don't need to be licensed to be a foster parent; you have to go through a background check. That background check is basically to verify that you don't have any outstanding criminal complaints against you that could affect that child, and certainly that there are no child welfare-type issues that would affect your ability to care for the child or, you know, possess or pose a risk to the child. We do what's called an Adam Walsh check, which many of your listeners may have heard about, which is basically a nationwide search to verify there are no more founded claims of child abuse, neglect, or anything like that against the person. Once that parent's rights are terminated, what will then happen is that the state will come back, and we'll do another kind of inspection and investigation; they'll do a more thorough home study. Home studies can be intimidating when they place a child with you. They want to verify that, again, the child will be safe in your care. For instance, they'll look at your home and ask, "Is there a pool in the backyard? Does the pool have a fence around it? Is that fence locked? Is there a gate are any medications that you're taking locked up and above a level by which a child can reach not just standing on the ground, but can they crawl on top of that cabinet and open the medicine cabinet Because again, the primary concern is the safety, health, and welfare of that child, they'll also look to make certain that, financially, you are in a position to ensure that you have enough to meet your own needs. Because again, children, as we all probably know, come with their own expenses. And that subsidy that's paid through the subsidy division of the Department of Child Safety may not cover everything. That subsidy will continue after the adoption. It may change, but it does continue. And once you have your background check done, they want to make certain that you have enough funds for your own needs before you take a child into your care because they want to make certain that that child will be cared for with the amount you receive from the subsidy division. After the home study has been done, the child is placed, and then you go forward with the adoption process. During the adoption process Hopefully, you will align yourself with a professional and an attorney who will help you through it. I will tell you that in the state of Arizona, you don't need an attorney. And furthermore, a county attorney can provide you with assistance. Having said that, the county attorney has other duties on their plate. And navigating the system on your own can be daunting because you need to obtain from the Department of Child Safety their approval, their certification, and their consent to your adoption. You also have to have a subsidy process where, again, they do a new evaluation, which determines based upon the needs of the child whether or not a subsidy will be paid to you and how much it will be. The county attorney doesn't get involved in that. And again, if you do it on your own, you don't know what therapies are included in their determination of how much subsidy will be paid. Once that subsidy has been extended, they'll send you a contract for your approval. Once that's approved, they will then consent to the adoption. And you can take the next step, which is filing your documents, filing your petition to adopt, and filing the supporting documents that you'll need to go before a judge. And the court will then set a hearing. Hearings are not to be concerned with; they're not the types of things we see on TV like law and order. It's not where somebody gets on the stand and you're examined or cross-examined. I like to tell people I practice warm, fuzzy love. Because when you get to that hearing, what the judge wants to know is, "What's your relationship with this child? What is the child's relationship with you? Do you know about the child? Do you know the child's birth date? Are you a good placement for the child? Is the child thriving in your care? Again, what's in the child's best interests? Many attorneys who practice adoption law, certainly in the state of Arizona, understand that we'll do things a little differently. I myself like to engage my clients on a very personal basis to draw them in when they're answering questions with the court that really express and display what their best interests are. And the fact that you are considering that child and the child's interests when you're deciding to adopt it. Because a lot of people use the phrase, it's not like adopting a puppy. And I hate that because you should never adopt a puppy without the intention to keep it, raise it, love it, and nurture it. But this is a lifetime obligation; this is a child; this, at the time of the adoption, becomes your child; you may not have given birth to the child, but you've chosen that child, and hopefully that child's chosen you, and it really is a wonderful thing. So I'll ask questions, such as when I deal with a law enforcement officer or former military member. And I'm speaking to the prospective adoptive father, in the case of a woman and man adopting, and they'll come to court, perhaps in uniform. And I look at them and say, "You're adopting a young girl; how old is she? And they'll tell me, and I'll say, so in another dozen years or so, she may come home and say, Daddy, I met a boy, and we're going steady. And Father will usually swallow hard and say, "Yeah, that may happen. And at that point, I'll pull my hair around, I'll say, and what are you going to do when she says, Daddy, he has hair just like your attorney did?

Amanda: haha

Jonathan: That's the reaction they have; they get red in the face, and they start to breathe a little heavier. They don't know how to answer. And the reason I asked those questions is for that purpose, because then you get the answer from the heart, the spur of the moment type of thing that, you know, the father may say, "We'll deal with it, "That's not going to happen," or something of that nature. But it's that honest response that really shows the court that you do care about this child you're going to adopt and that you are concerned about the child's best interests. Once the adoption takes place, you'll receive a certified copy of the order of adoption, which is probably one of the most important documents. Here in Arizona, we refer to it as having a gold or platinum staple. The reason for that is that it's several pages long. And if you take the staple out of a certified document, you actually void that certification. Most of us have taken staples out of documents, and we've aligned the stapler backup and put it back in. However, it is still a voided certification, and the one agency that needs to see it and train their personnel to know when you've done that is the Social Security Administration. Because once you adopt a child, that child is your child, both in the eyes of the law and emotionally, and that child is entitled to Social Security benefits through your account. So if you are elderly and find yourself disabled, such that you're receiving benefits, that adopted child is like any naturally born child and is entitled to those benefits. So it's very important that you go to Social Security, register the adoption, and link it to your account. And that's where that certified document comes in. Because under the social security regulations, that is probably the necessary document. The other thing that you may consider doing here in Arizona, you actually have the option as to whether or not you want to amend the original birth certificate. Normally, what happens is that the birth certificate is amended to show the child's adoptive name in the event that you're changing the child's name, which is actually part of the adoption process. There's no cost to change your child's name if you want to do that. But also to show your names as the adoptive parents, those documents are important because both of these together are proof of who you are. Under the law. If you don't have a power of attorney, you're not a legal guardian, or you have an adopted child, you don't have the right to pick the child up from school or drop the child off at school to get medical care for the child. So when you get that document, what I often do is scan it on my phone. I have an application that scans documents into PDF documents. And I'll send that to my client. So they'll have a PDF version of the order of adoption, because that can be sent to the doctor, to schools, and to everyone who needs to know not only whether or not the child's name has been changed but that you are now related to that child as the adoptive parents. The process should cost you nothing. The state of Arizona has a subsidy for what we call non-recurring adoption expenses. Most of us, most of the attorneys who are practicing, I will tell you, accept what the state pays through the subsidy division for adoptions. So there's no cost to you. The only potential cost could be the post-adoption birth certificate, which is not related to the charges but to the birth state for the document. Again, here in Arizona, it's $30. So it's not a tremendous expense. Most attorneys will assist in getting those I know again; I do that as a part of what I do, simply because I believe it's so critical to have that you, as an adult adoptive parent, need to focus on the child; you don't need to worry about all these little things that are happening in the background, or, you know, not to get the birth certificate; the only thing you need to be concerned with is that child's health, safety, and, again, welfare. If you're interested in being a foster parent, the best place to start is with one of the agencies that certifies foster parents here in Arizona; the primary agency is Arizona's Children's Association. It is a nonprofit, like most of them, but they will do the training. The reason I mentioned them is because they're affiliated with the Arizona Department of Child Safety. There are a number of other agencies; there is Catholic Charities; there is Southwest Behavioral; there are any number that are available; if you have a question, Google it; you're certainly welcome to reach out to me, and I can help you find someone that you have a relationship with that you feel comfortable going to for the training. The training does not take an exceptional period of time; it's basically telling you how to be a parent as well as advising you on what you are entitled to as a foster parent in terms of assistance from the Department of Child Safety. A final word about foster parenting As I said before, you guys are my angels. But you need to think in terms of when you were in junior high school. And in junior high school, you probably met somebody, and you probably fell head over heels in love with that person. And you thought that this was it—this was going to be it forever. Life was great. What happened? That person probably did something or something happened to the relationship that left you with a broken heart. I tell my foster parents that's kind of like what being a foster parent is. Because you give so much of yourself to that child. And you really have to, because understand that these children are coming into care with, I hate to say, baggage but with issues. It could have been that they were abused or neglected; they may have been born addicted. They come to you like a dry sponge. And it's your love that saturates them; it's your love and your nurturing that give them that chance to thrive and put them in that direction. But at any point, the Department of Child Safety can come in and say you've done a really good job. The parents have done what they've needed to: they've gotten drug counseling, they're clean, they're sober, we're reunifying the child with the parents, or they found a family member that is able, willing, and ready to take the child into foster care. So we're going to move the child there. And as a foster parent, generally speaking, you have to support that, and it hurts. The law in Arizona does provide you with the ability to receive some grief counseling. There hasn't been a lot of use of that because, under the law, there's no legally enforceable right. It just mentions that you have it. There is a new law that is actually in the process of being passed as I speak that will give you some equitable relief, meaning you can finally obtain that grief counseling. If that does happen, again, we all hope it doesn't. But I like my clients to go in understanding the realities of what can happen. Because ultimately, as an attorney, my role is to educate you, my client, and to support you. I like to get involved in cases early, even before parents' rights are terminated. So I can help guide you through the process as well as explain what's happening as a foster parent. In a dependency case, you are only a participant. What that means is that if the court asks you a question, you can respond to it. You don't have the right to ask questions. You don't have the right to present evidence. You should at least speak if you're spoken to, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but you should understand what is happening. So you can protect yourself, and you can give the department the information they need. So that's the foster side of things.

Navigating Foster Care Across State Lines

Amanda: Awesome. I have a couple of follow-up questions that I often get about foster care, and it's definitely not my area of expertise, so forgive any, you know, misspeaking that I make here as I kind of stumbled my way through sharing the questions. So the first question I often get is whether or not you can foster a child from a different state. Or do you? Are you required to be a resident of that state in order to foster a child in that state?

Jonathan: That's a great question. It's a 55-gallon drum that you just opened up. But yes, the short answer is yes; there is something called the interstate compact on the placement of children. Basically, every state in the nation and Puerto Rico have entered into an agreement. I talked about the Virgin Islands; Puerto Rico is not yet a signatory. Having said that, it's an agreement. It's a compact between states that provides for the safe and timely transfer of children across state lines for foster care or adoption. Generally speaking, here in Arizona, for example, they will look for a family member to place the child with in another state; it can be someone who has a significant relationship with the child. So it could be that family friends, Uncle Sam and Aunt Helen, will seek and see if they want to be placed because, again, they want to place children in a comfortable setting when they've got experience and familiarity with it. So you can go through that process. The way the ICPC works in a very condensed fashion is that the ascending state is the state in which the child has come into service. So let's say here in Arizona, there are two parents who have fallen into a situation where they can't care for the child. The child has come into services, and they've located an aunt in Texas. What they'll do, as Arizona will do, is reach out to Texas and say we have a child we'd like to place with the aunt. At that point. There's a home study that's performed in accordance with Texas law. Texas law differs from Arizona law. For example, in Texas, there are five different types of home studies that are done here; there are basically two, but once that's approved, the state of Texas will respond to Arizona and say, "Okay, you can place this child with the Amped in Texas." Once the child has been placed with the Amped, visits are performed every 30 days. In other words, someone from Texas will visit the home, visit the child, make certain everything is fine, make certain that the child is thriving and getting the care they need, and will respond back to Arizona while the child is in Texas. The health care benefits they get will be in accordance with Texas Medicaid law. When you foster a child, you get or the child does receive health care. Health care is sort of an adjunct to that state's Medicaid benefits. So again, there's no cost to you for the health care. And when a child transfers, it will transfer and receive those benefits. But under the law of the state in which it's being placed. The same sort of thing happens when, for instance, if a child comes into services in Texas and is placed in Arizona, Arizona does a study to verify that the child will be safe and that the people who are going to care for the child are fit and proper and will respond back to Texas saying, "Okay, you can place the child here. If termination happens and then becomes an adoption, there's generally another study that's done. Just to verify that this family was fit for foster purposes, are they fit now to adopt under the ICPC? It has to be six months; your child has to be in your care for six months before you can get approval. In fact, in the state of Arizona, once you have a child, you have to have a child in your care in foster care for six months before you can adopt that child. There are some exceptions, but generally speaking, they will look for six months of time and care before you get any of the approvals. So getting back to your question, yes. Yeah, it is possible.

Understanding the Timelines and Possibilities of Adopting Newborns: Insights from Arizona's Foster Care and Private Adoption Processes

Amanda: Thank you. I'm probably about to open another 55-gallon drum of questions here. Another question I quite often get in our community is from hopeful adoptive parents that are looking specifically to adopt a newborn, and they asked if that's possible through the foster care process. What I just heard you say was that a child needs to be in your care for at least six months. And earlier, you spoke about the fact that the parental rights of the birth parents would also need to be terminated before a child would be eligible for adoption. My magic wand moment is: Is there a timeline, right? That's like, on average, it takes about this long before a child is eligible for adoption, which may be the the 55 gallon drum of all the layers of complexity,

Jonathan: I will tell you that it can happen. In as short a time as in my experience, I'm trying to think what the earliest was—I want to say right around eight months old—and that in that particular case, without divulging too much information, the child came into services because it was technically born addicted. When a child is born in the state of Arizona, they'll take the umbilical cord and test it for certain antibodies, called the conium test, that will show whether or not the birth mother was under the influence of drugs, methamphetamine, heroin, whatever it is, even marijuana. When that is a positive test and the child comes into services—in this case, the child did test positive for heroin or opiates—the child did immediately come into services, and mom walked out of the hospital, never to be seen again. So they went immediately to termination because Mom never showed up. The judicial process was that they reached out and tried to offer mom services, and they immediately found that there was a dependency. And again, you did open that drum, but that's okay. The first finding of the court will be whether or not there is a dependency. That court will determine whether or not that child should be a dependent child in the state of Arizona due to neglect, abuse, or whatever the circumstances are. That's not termination; that simply means that that child is entitled to the services of the state while the parents are receiving services to try to get over the issues they have. So they can go back to being parents. If they fail in that, then they will go to a termination; they'll change the case plan to separate; they call it severance and adoption. Here in Arizona, we talk in terms of severance. Other states may speak in terms of termination, but it's the same thing. You're severing the parent's rights from the child's. In that case, they virtually immediately went to severance and adoption. Because there was no one there, no one showed up. There were no services. All we had was the foster parent who had a long history of fostering children and wanted to adopt that child, even knowing there were likely to be issues with a child who comes into services who is addicted, especially in that case when the child goes through withdrawals. And it's absolutely heartbreaking to see. But what often happens is that a year or two, maybe even three years later, you'll start to notice or start to see certain behavioral types of issues. I'm not a physician, and I haven't done the research. I can't tell you if it's this, that, or another malady. However, in my experience, I see a lot of behavioral issues that come out when a child is a year and a half or two years old, and they were definitely born addicted. And this is not talking about some of the more horrific types of things, such as fetal alcohol syndrome. I could give you a list that is truly heartbreaking. And I've adopted many of those children from two foster families who only take in these medically fragile children. So yeah, you're looking at about eight months on the early side of things. Normally, you are probably looking in terms of anywhere from a year to two years, because they will give a parent all the chances they can as long as a parent is honestly doing what they are to try to recover as long as they are staying in contact with the child and are safe with the child. They don't just treat the child well. It's unclear if there's someone who supervises the contact; sometimes it's virtual. So the child's safety and best interest are again paramount, but they will give the parent enough of a chance once a child has been in services for 19 months that you're almost certainly going to adopt.

Amanda: Very helpful.

Jonathan: But generally, if you specifically request to foster infants and newborns, you can make that request when you get certified to adopt. When you have taken the classes and become a licensed or certified foster caregiver, you can tell the agency the age range that you are looking to foster. What you can't do is say we are only encouraged to adopt many of these when I lecture around the state. The first question I asked was, Who here is fostering to adopt? Please raise your hand." And I'll give people you know a smattering. Or it could be half the people who raise their hands. And I tell them, No, they're not. And they look at me as if to say, "What do you mean?" "How are you challenging yourself?" There is no designation, "Foster to Adopt," but you can certainly say you are open for adoption. But again, the main thing that the department is looking for is someone who will foster that child in their relationship. If you are seeking to adopt, if that is your primary desire, and you want an infant, you are probably better off trying to do that privately.

Understanding Adoption in Arizona: Exploring Foster Care and Private Adoption Processes

Amanda: Thank you; that is super helpful. I get a lot of questions around just that idea, honestly, because, you know, there's obviously a need. But then, as you touched upon earlier, there's financial support, you know, that kind of comes along with that.

Jonathan: And when you do adopt through the foster system, roughly speaking, it's around $600 a month per child, which is tax-free because it's paid to the child on your behalf. And it goes up a little bit from there. But that's in addition to the medical care; it's based on the needs of the child, how often you're taking the child to see therapies or receive treatments, or how much you are prevented from working because of the needs of the child. and it scales up from that point. Also, I should probably mention that in Arizona, anyone who is under 18 can be adopted, and anyone over 18 can be adopted as an individual or as a married couple. If a married couple, if one of them wants to adopt, a parent can adopt singly as well. In our law, the way the law is written, it still speaks of man and woman, and I am in a huge 55-gallon drum. There are a dozen of them. The governor, the former governor, had already declared and entered an order, basically as much as he could, that there should be no discrimination. Our Supreme Court has piggybacked on the Supreme Court of the United States, where it says there is no distinction between a man and a woman and a single-sex couple in terms of rights and obligations. So we do have the ability for single-sex couples to adopt in Arizona. I've done many of them. I did the first one in an extremely conservative county, where the judge looked at me and said, "Court, tell me how I can do this when the law says man and woman. So I went through everything with him. And he smiled the entire time, and his smile got bigger. And he finally said, "Thank you very much. I have the authority based on the authority you gave me. He was crossing Ts and dotting eyes. And that was a wonderful, wonderful adoption. So don't be concerned about that when it comes to foster care. Foster care has blinders; they don't look at who you are; they don't look at race, creed, color, orientation, or anything else. They're looking at you as a person; they're looking at your qualifications and ability to foster that child. So they should please do so.

Amanda: Yeah, thank you. That is, again, super helpful to have that understanding. I'd love to take just a minute to shift our conversation to private adoption. And can you share a little bit more about the private adoption process in the state of Arizona?

Jonathan: Absolutely. Absolutely. The private adoption process is really not that different from the adoption process. in foster care, and adoption itself. Just looking at that element, you have to file a petition that says who you are, your relationship with the child, how long the child has been with you, whether or not you're certified or not, and whether or not you have either the consent of the birth parent or the birth parent's rights have been terminated. And then you have to give them some supporting documentation. It's the same in both scenarios; how you get there is really what's different in Arizona, but it can happen. To be honest, it can happen very easily through an agency, where you would go to one of the numerous agencies where they receive children or receive notification of a prospective birth. And they will introduce the prospective adoptive parent to the prospective birth parent so that they can get an understanding of background history, whether there are drug issues, and other things that need to be known and considered. And then you would go ahead and enter into an agreement with that person to become the adoptive parent. In Arizona, like most states, there's a 72-hour waiting period. What that means is that when a child is born, a parent, a birth parent, cannot consent to that child's adoption for at least 72 hours. Understand that this also goes in, or excuse me, this also applies to situations where you have a gestational carrier or where you have surrogates. We don't have surrogates in Arizona by law; they are not allowed by law, but that doesn't mean they don't happen. But there's still that 72-hour period within which they can say, I am not giving this child up for adoption; the state favors the birth mother. That is the one person who is certainly involved in this whole thing. We know who Mom is because she carried and delivered, but you may not know who Dad is. And the law does provide for those situations where the birth mother doesn't exactly know who the father is, even in a private adoption, notice has to be given A notice has to be published that a child is being offered for adoption by its mother. You have a certain period of time within which to respond if you believe you're the birth father. To challenge that and have paternity determined by law, you would take a paternity test, and you would have to file in court for paternity to assume responsibility. If you don't do those things, then your consent is not required by law. But you can go to an agency for that. Oftentimes, I have clients who know somebody or somebody's daughter who has become pregnant, and they don't want to terminate, but they do want to provide that child for adoption. And that can be arranged between the two people. It can be arranged through an attorney, or again, it can be arranged through one of the agencies for adoption. Oftentimes, a parent or the child of a parent who is pregnant will try to advertise for adoption. And I know this is one of the questions you could ask there; you can advertise in the paper, but you can also put it on social media. I see it where, you know, someone will say there is a child that is going to be born that you know is going to be adopted; oftentimes, religious organizations within the walls of that organization will spread the word and say, "There is a parent who is going to be, you know, delivering a child; we'd like it to remain within us if anyone would like to step up for the purpose of adopting the child or isn't interested, that can be developed and can become an adoption. Because ultimately, when you go to court on the adoption, the judge will look at the facts and determine if it is in the child's best interest. The main concern of the courts and around the country is that we don't want a situation where it's nothing more than trying child trafficking. Yeah. And that's where the ICPC came in. That's where international compacts come in, because we don't want a situation where someone says, Oh, certainly I'll adopt with the intention of being somewhat nefarious, right?

Amanda: Yeah, that is super helpful. So you touched on a lot there that I'll unpack for the audience. So when it comes to the different types of adoption, you can definitely use an agency. Yes, you can also self-match through a connection. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Some people call that independent matching; some people call it self-matching. Some people call it private adoption. Either way, the intention is that you are connecting with someone through your network or through some other means. And they have an intention to place a child for adoption; you have an intention to adopt a child.

Jonathan: Yeah. In fact, I see more self-matching in the private scenario than in most of the others.

Amanda: That is good to hear. It's definitely something that's becoming much more popular within our community. And I get tons and tons of questions all the time And the primary question is, "How do you do it?" And so I think resources like this are really great to teach people the foundations of it.

Jonathan: Sure. And in those cases, oftentimes you will find the birth parent having some continuing involvement with the child. And if I can sidestep and talk about that for a moment, yeah, for sure. In both of these situations, foster adoptions as well as private adoptions Again, birth parents have the right to be involved in foster situations; oftentimes, a parent will consent, but they will want what's called a communication agreement. And we have a provision in our law whereby the parties can agree and set the terms of that contact. How is the mother or father of the birth parent to have contact? Is it only to be the receiver? In other words, the adoptive parent will send a picture. Usually it's a school picture without a school designation or any other identifying information. They may send letters; they may exchange letters; they may have virtual visits; they may have telephone visits; you can agree to whatever that looks like. Under the law, the adoptive parent retains the ability to say that this is no longer in the child's best interest. And they can basically terminate that agreement. On that basis, there doesn't need to be a judicial finding that there has been a termination or that it's no longer in the child's best interest. The onus then goes to the birth parent to say, No, I disagree with this. And then they would initiate an action to say no; it's not in the child's best interest to terminate the agreement. Oftentimes, they terminate simply because of inconsistency. If a parent is not consistent in that child's life, it can be very damaging to the child because children know when they're adopted. You may adopt an infant, but that child is going to know it was adopted. It may not be today; it may not be when they're five or six, but by the time they're eight, nine, or 10, they will know they've been adopted. And I certainly encourage my foster parents, as well as my parents who privately adopt, to be very open, to be very honest, and to normalize the process. From the beginning, it was not a big deal. It shouldn't be a big deal. Because if you don't, and this is a lesson I actually learned from my wife, when that child learns, and they're 910, 11 or 12, they will look at you and say, You lied to me; my whole life up to this point is a lie. So again, a caution back to private adoptions in cases where birth parents are involved. It's almost like having an app; oftentimes they are called mother, and the children will refer to them as mother; they will refer to their adoptive, you know, mother as mom or dad; there is their own designation of who's who. And in that line, I encourage you to allow the child to make that determination. They will know who their parents are; they will know who you know and who is legally responsible. But their comfort is what's important. So I apologize. Did that sidestep

Exploring the Adoption Process: Insights, Challenges, and the Importance of Having an Adoption Attorney

Amanda: No, no, that's great. I love that you talked about what most people are seeing as post placement agreements," or post placement contracts. And I think we learned in the state of New Jersey, for instance, that it was a contract. I think it was New Jersey; don't quote me on that; I'm not an attorney. But you know, there are certain states that do require it as a legal contract. And it's good to hear that there is the opportunity to change that contract based on the circumstances. I personally would love it if both parties agreed to the change. But if there's an unresponsive party, there's very little you can do in that situation. Because things will change as the children grow. I know that's what's happening in my own life right now without divulging too many of my children's private stories, but it is, to your point, really important to share from the very beginning. In an age-appropriate way, that is my biggest avocation, right? It started out in our family that you grew up in my heart, not in my belly, and then it moved into you having a tummy, Bobby, and you know, those types of things as they were small and trying to piece together seeing their friends are pregnant, you know, their friend's parents are pregnant, but yet I'm going to have a brother, and that doesn't, you know, I don't understand that type of situation. So I definitely agree that it should not be a big surprise or reveal-type moment.

Jonathan: And again, children know that, and you will see, and I've seen children that I've assisted in their adoptions come back years later, and they're proud, you know, we're adopting another baby brother. And they're so proud to be part of that process. War stories could go on forever. I have a client who has always fostered medically fragile and behavioral children, children that had significant behavioral needs. And the children they've adopted—they adopted eight—have now aged to the point where they're going to reopen their license. And the children they've adopted are so excited because they're going to get to help. And, you know, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Amanda: That is amazing. So as we talked about private adoption there, you talked about the different types of adoption, and you talked about the general process being similar to that of foster care in that you need to be, you know, kind of approved for a home study process, and then you're going to get connected with an expectant parent, either through your agency or through your own network. You also touched a bit on advertising and said that advertising such as that in the paper wouldn't be allowed. I'm assuming that's because that's a paid medium that is correct to advertise profit-sharing it with your social network would be allowed into adoption. And that would be because that's an unpaid medium, because you're not paying Facebook to place it there, you know, with your intention to adopt there. Right. Okay, perfect. And then moving on to kind of the practical elements of, again, the steps of what happens from that in the process. You touched on the fact that there's a 72-hour period after birth before the rights can be terminated.

Jonathan: And consent can be given

Amanda: Thank you! “consent can be given” Thank you. Each state's language is slightly different. And then at that point, and earlier on, I believe you hadn't touched upon the fact that basically there's a six-month period that you must be a parent; does that mean the finalization window means you're parenting for six months before the adoptions are actually finalized?

Jonathan: The reason for the pause is, again, because every scenario is different. Let me back up a little bit. When you have a private adoption, and let's say someone you know is going to have a child, you're going to adopt the child. If they go ahead and consent to your adopting the child at that point, you would also want to get a power of attorney, which allows you to have physical custody of the child. In other words, without that, if she's the birth mother, she's still the mother, and if the father is the father, they have the legal right to the child. If you don't have any legal rights by having a power of attorney, or better yet, even a guardianship, you have the legal right to have that child in your care, custody, and control, and you have the legal right to provide for that child. So simply having consent doesn't get you to the point of custody. Without that document, from the standpoint of the law, one of the things you will want to do that will help later is to go ahead and have that home study done. The reason I say that it's not a legal requirement, but when you go to court, under the law under 810681 12, Arizona statute, title eight section 181 12 is where certification comes in, and where the home study requirement comes in. If you don't have a home study, you need to have a child in your possession for six months before you can go forward. Having that home study will enable you to adopt sooner than that. And that home study is a little more extensive. I spoke before about a home study, talking about finances and such. This one goes into a lot more depth it will go into your personal backgrounds, how your childhood You know what happened in your childhood. Do you have siblings? Do you have parents? Were there any divorces in your family? Do you have any health issues? How's your health? What are your finances? How much do you make? How much do you spend on what's left over? What are your religious beliefs, if any? It's very detailed. Some people say it's onerous. Some people say it's intrusive, and when they tell me that, I say yes, but there's no limit to how intrusive someone should be when we're talking about the best interests of a child. So let's move on. Let's let them intrude. because it's for a purpose, and that document will be filed with the court. When it's filed for adoption, it's sealed. That record is sealed; no one gets to see it without a court order. But once you have that, let's say you have your fingerprint card that's issued by the State that says you have no Clinton No, there are no crimes against you; you don't have any child welfare issues. You are then in a position to go forward with that adoption. And that can happen in less than six months. Okay, so that kind of distinction Yeah, without that, you're generally looking at six months, and you're still going to have some hoops and hurdles to go through. Practically speaking, depending on court calendars, you may have six months anyway, which is part of the other issue. I know that in some counties, the judges will primarily be in one county; the judge actually gives me one day a month that I can put as many on as I want. I have certain times only because I do a fair number in that county, Mohave County. So I know, third, third, or third Wednesday, and probably third Thursday in two different courts, I'm going to have days and times, but just the numbers and the numbers of children. And then again, the courts own calendar may prevent anything before six, seven, or even nine months.

Amanda: Yeah, that is good. And I think you hit on the most important part that we have not even touched on throughout this entire conversation, which is why you need to have an adoption attorney. That is why this specialty exists. And it is truly a specialty just because you showed me the shoe. Excuse me, you showed that just as we were talking here, when you were like, Oh, this is the statue. And this is, you know, that particular section, and someone who understands the law inside and out to that degree is really important to have by your side because this is a really difficult process to navigate on your own.

Jonathan: It can be daunting, and again, you should be loving and nurturing a child. That's right; you let somebody else take care of it. It's like when you go to a restaurant, you don't go into the kitchen, although I'd like to because I like to cook, but you don't go into the kitchen to make your meal; you let someone else do it. So you can relax and enjoy. That's the way I look at things you should be enjoying. I don't say relaxing, especially if you're adopting an infant or a newborn, because there's relaxation, but it's not that much. But you should be focusing on that. But somebody else does it—someone who will guide you when there is a bump in the road, somebody who knows how to manage that. It's like when you're fostering and the parents rights are terminated, they have 15 days after the termination. And that's after the judge signs the order terminating the right to file an appeal. Because a parent has a constitutional right to parent their children. When you're deprived of a constitutional right, you have an automatic right of appeal. And that happens a lot, even in cases where parents, you know, have issues that clearly say they can't parent children. They still have the right to appeal. And that can delay a case by a year. When those happen. Again, I tell my clients, "Let me worry about the legal issues. Let me worry about what's happening there. Focus on the child, and I'll let you know what you need to know. You know, it's important that you have that kind of relationship with your chosen professional to help guide you through this, which is why I was talking about county attorneys. I don't mean to be disparaging, and I certainly don't mean to be disparaging. And in a lot of cases, they're straightforward, so there's no issue. But you want somebody who is looking out for your best interests as well. making certain that you have what you need and that things are in place. So when you get to the point where you're walking into the courtroom and everything's done, you're going to know what to expect. It's a formality. Sure, I'm going to pick on you because I like to do that. I'm going to make you cry because it's an emotional time. Don't worry, I'm going to cry too. I'm going to, you know, it's like, "No, I always wear my heart cufflinks. When I go to adoptions, they need to be celebrated. And again, we make certain that you have that experience, not one fraught with problems.

Amanda: Yeah. And that's really important. Honestly, I've recently created a guide to help hopeful adoptive families through conversations like this, because I get a wonderful, you know, introduction to you all and get to meet you and learn a little bit more about you, and having that vetted partner guide is really important because I learned that the hard way in my own adoptions. I didn't have partners that I felt like I could ask the tough questions to, and that resulted in me often being silent, even though my gut was saying, "Ask this question, but because I was afraid to ask the question.

Jonathan: No, the silly question is the one you don't ask. That's right. When I talk to my clients for the very first time, when they call in the office and I'm getting information, what I tell them is that my assistant Robin is bothered by our clients. We get lonely when you don't bother us. So please take advantage of that. I need to know what's going on. If you're fostering and it's an issue of the health or welfare of the child, absolutely. Call your case manager, but follow up with a call to me, because I'm going to tell you what's going on and walk you through it. And I can only do that if I know what's happening. So it's important that you be that bothered to be that client that I say what you're calling again. I want you to be that client.

Amanda: Yeah, that's really important. Well, thank you. And as we wrap up our conversation today, I would love to know, if you just have any parting thoughts that you'd like to share with the agency, whether it be foster care or private adoption, just or adoption in general,

Jonathan: "Um, relish the moment, you know; try not to worry about the legal mechanism; let somebody guide you. And thank you for giving a child yet to be born in the system or not that forever family where they're going to thrive because you're there to give them that love, encouragement, and nurturing. So thank you for that.

Amanda: Awesome. Well, thank you for your time today. We really appreciate it. My pleasure. And we'll be sure to link to Jonathan in our show notes. So you'll be able to just scroll down wherever you're watching or listening and find his contact information on his website. And Jonathan, thank you again for everything you do for all of the kids in the state of Arizona. And for being such a great resource for our community. We really appreciate you.

Jonathan: My pleasure. Thank you very much.

Amanda: I trust that you found so much value in that conversation with Jonathan. Not only was he amazing at explaining things kind of step by step and in a detailed process, but he's obviously a wealth of information and really cares about his clients. So if you're looking for a partner, make sure you check out the show notes and find Jonathan's contact information. And if you're looking for more information on that adoption partner guide, then please reach out to me via the link in the show notes, where you can get access to the guide today. Remember, friend, anything's possible with the right plan and support, and I'm here with you every step of the way. I'll see you soon.