Surrogacy In California

Are you considering using a surrogate in order to form your family? If so, you may be wondering how the process works. And are you really just trying to get a baseline understanding so that you can know which types of questions to ask? If so, today's conversation is going to be really valuable for you, my friend. Today we're having a conversation with Catherine. Catherine is an assisted reproductive technology attorney in the state of California. She specializes in surrogacy in particular, and in our conversation today, we're going to talk about how the process works, what type of partners you need in the process, and some parallels between adoption and surrogacy, just to make it a little bit easier to understand the process overall. I'm really excited to have this conversation with Catherine today.

Amanda: Catherine, Thank you so much for joining us today. Catherine. We're really excited to have you here.

Catherine: Well, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here today.

Amanda: Do you mind sharing just a little bit more about yourself and your particular area of specialty when it comes to adoption and reproductive law with our audience?

Catherine: Absolutely. So my name is Catherine, and I'm sure you can tell I have an accent. I'm originally from Germany; I studied law in Germany, and then I moved up here. It's going to be nine years in October. And I do not work in the field of adoption. But I work in the field of assisted reproductive technology law. So I work with surrogates, intended parents, and egg donors. And yeah, that's what I do. I'm in California, I'm in Los Angeles, and the name of our law firm is International Reproductive Law Group.

Exploring Surrogacy: Understanding the Path to Parenthood and California's Laws

Amanda: Awesome. And I know we haven't focused a whole lot on surrogacy here on this channel, which is why I'm super excited to have you here. We were fortunate enough to meet in person a few weeks ago at an adoption and assisted reproductive technology conference. And I'm excited to learn all things surrogacy from you today and also refer our audience to reach out to you to learn further after this. I'll just give our general disclaimer that we always use at the top of these interviews: this is not legal, you know, infirm; this is only for informational purposes; it's not legal advice. You're not creating an attorney-client relationship. Katherine's just doing this out of the goodness of her heart to help educate us in this community around it because I know that surrogacy is oftentimes a question mark in a lot of hopeful adoptive parents minds, like, "Is this the right option for us? So I would love it if you would just start the conversation by talking a little bit more about what surrogacy is. one and then two, just maybe an overview of the surrogacy laws in California, because I do believe that those might vary from state to state, similar to adoption laws.

Catherine: That is very true. Yes. So surrogacy in general means that a woman will carry an embryo for you and deliver the child for you. So there are two different types: denser gestational surrogacy, which is mainly practiced, and traditional surrogacy, which doesn't happen very often. We personally don't take cases like that. And that would be when the surrogate egg is used, so she would be inseminated with someone sperm, her eggs so her genetics, she carries the child that delivers it and then the intended parents take over gestational surrogacy It's never the surrogate's genetics; it's always someone else's egg. And obviously someone else's sperm. So yeah, and then they transmit, so the surrogate takes a lot of medication. Usually, once she starts her cycle, she's placed on medication, and then the embryo is transferred into her womb. And then, as soon as the child is delivered, the intended parents take over. So that surrogacy in a nutshell,

Amanda: awesome. And for the audience, we're hearing different terms than what you hear sometimes as well. We're here as intended parents versus hopeful adoptive families, and I think it's maybe because it's more of an intentional act, but maybe you can educate us there as well.

Catherine: Yeah, so we call those intended parents because it's their intent to be the parents of the child that will be delivered. Okay. And then, when we talk to him in analogy, maybe it is also important to note that we call it surrogacy and a surrogate, but a surrogate can also be called a gestational carrier; we may actually call it a gestational carrier in the contract. Some people call them surrogate mothers." We don't really like this because she's not the mother, right? She doesn't have, as I explained earlier, any genetic connection. And she's not really the mother; she's really carrying the child for the intended parents.

Amanda: Okay, that totally makes sense. So as it relates to just kind of understanding the process of surrogacy a bit more, can you explain how intended parents and gestational carriers oftentimes get connected or introduced? Is it a similar type of model, like from an agency or a self-matching perspective, that we might hear? In the traditional adoption world, though? It's similar?

Catherine: Normally, it's through I mean, there's no normal, actually, right? The best way to do it, let's put it that way, is through an agency, and that agency will match antenna pants with surrogates. So they screened the surrogates beforehand; they screened the intended parents; and then the intended parents were, you know, provided with a profile of a surrogate to see if they liked her looks. If she likes them, they get to meet, and then they can decide if they want to move forward. Or if it's not a match. There are also independent matches, as we call them; they have nothing to do with an agency. It happens over Facebook and Craigslist; I mean, it's not very suggested. Because there's no vetting behind it. Right. The agency also makes sure that, you know, they schedule the appointments with a doctor, they follow through with everything, and they make sure there's enough money in the escrow account, which may be handled either by the agency or by a third party, depending on my state. It depends on the state. But yes, there are both options, right? You have either the agency or you can also have independent matches, which then go through, I think, mainly, honestly, Facebook.

Navigating Surrogacy: From Matching to Medical Processes and Communication Options

Amanda: Now, yeah, that totally helps me understand the landscape a bit more. So when it comes again, I'm just going to kind of draw parallels to the adoption process. If you don't mind for a few minutes, the first kind of process that I know many hopeful adoptive parents go through is deciding which type of adoption is right for them. So it sounds like in this situation, again, there's an agency or an independent if that's the route you choose. But I definitely heard the benefits of the agency, really kind of doing the screening, if you will, of the gestational carrier and ensuring that this gestational carrier is able to carry and is equipped to carry. I'm not sure what terminology to use there. That makes sense. And the next kind of process as you kind of go through the adoption process is definitely around getting your home study ready? Is home study a requirement for surrogacy in the state of California?

Catherine: No. So that's a very big topic, and actually, amongst, you know, professionals, there is no home study required. Really, in most states, you check (Utah comes to mind), but they can still get matched and go through all the processes. The home study requirement comes once she's pregnant. So at this point, it would technically be too late. Right? If you think about it, the only state that comes to mind that actually has a home study requirement is California, where there is no home study requirement at all. So the intended parents are not very well screened, to be honest. I mean, you know, the agencies make sure. I mean, it also depends on the agency; they all have their own protocols. But I would say they make sure that they're, you know, psychologically sound and financially sound, and, you know, that's where it ends, really. In California. Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda: And then, as you mentioned earlier when you were describing the process profiles, they're sharing some sort of level of information between intended parents, parents, and gestational carriers. And I'm assuming that the agencies typically have some sort of standard questionnaire or something that you're to provide that facilitates that communication.

Catherine: It's, yeah, questionnaires, and then they write a little essay; the surrogates write an essay. I have to admit, I've never seen an intendant parent's profile. Oh, really? Okay. Why I've never seen one. I've seen a lot of surrogate profiles. I haven't seen an intended parent profile, but I would think that they have one as well. For the surrogates, which I've seen a lot. It's usually an essay; they describe, you know, their lives and their families; they include pictures of their families; and then they explain why they would like to act as a surrogate. Okay. Profile. Yeah, that's what it's about.

Amanda: And so from there, you're likely moving into the stage where you're choosing the genetic material that will alter the embryo that will become the child for the intended parents. And I'm assuming if you're working with some sort of surrogacy agency that they're helping you in that endeavor as well, whether it be your own genetic material, donor material, or things of that nature. Does that mean that that is pretty accurate?

Catherine: Yes, most agencies do match donors and surrogates. There are some agencies that specialize in donors. I'm not sure if there must be agencies that are also only specialized in surrogacy, even though I haven't come across those yet. But normally, they provide both. And so it really depends on Well, if it's a gay couple, obviously they need an egg donor; if it's a straight couple, it really depends. They like to have the couples, you know, be screened by the IVF physician and have them make an assessment if they think that it would be successful or not. Or if they recommend maybe two, to go with an egg donor right away or to try with the intended mother's eggs first, and if it fails, then, you know, choose an egg donor. Okay, that makes sense.

Amanda: And so from there, you're going through kind of the medical side of things, and it sounded like the surrogacy agencies handling most of the appointment creation are there. I know that when it comes to adoption, there are a lot of different scenarios in which you are involved, maybe having direct contact between the hopeful adoptive parent and the expectant parent. Is that also happening between the intended parent and the gestational carrier? Or does it just kind of run the gamut of all the different options you could imagine there?

Catherine: So it depends. It also depends on the agency. Some agencies do not want the intended parents or surrogate to be in contact until after the agreement is signed. I mean, they have the initial match meeting, but after that, they don't really communicate directly until the gestational carrier agreement is signed; others have them communicate right away, once they have had their mash meeting and decided to move forward together. That really depends.

Exploring Surrogacy: Navigating Legal Processes and State Variations for Intended Parents

Amanda: Okay. And then I would assume that your level of contact, as it relates to maybe participating in appointments and getting updates and things of that nature, could also depend.

Catherine: I mean, after the contract has been signed and she goes to not the, if we're not talking about the medical screening prior to moving forward, right, there's two, we have the screening prior. And then we have the appointments, you know, to prepare the embryo transfer, and then ultrasound appointments and all that. So prior to the agreement being signed and all that, there's usually not much contact. But once the agreement has been signed, the surrogate prepares the embryo transfer procedure, and once she's pregnant, it really is open to the parties. I've seen different agreements, right? So if they want to, if they're close by, and the attentive parents can be there, they will be there. But if they're, you know, far away, or you know, international, Of course, then they couldn't be, and then they tried to do, you know, WhatsApp video time at that, but every agreement—I mean, at the end of the day, I've never seen an agreement that says the intended parents wouldn't be allowed to attend any medical appointment. So it's definitely wanted by all, and I think that they can attend; it's just, you know, is it really feasible?

Amanda: Right, that makes sense. Yeah, you touched on international. I want to come back to that in a second. I want to keep the train of thought going and move forward on the machine. So then, when it comes time for delivery, I'm assuming there's probably some sort of agreement around who's in the room and who's not in the room and things of that nature, as well as a kind of skin-to-skin moment as well. And assuming that all of those would be things that would be ironed out in advance,

Catherine: Everything is in the contract. Exactly. So that's also what's good about the agency: the agency already discussed this before we even come to the contract phase. So that's the thing sometimes with those intendant independent matches—you know, I guess they never discussed it; it's a lot of back and forth, whereas with the agencies, it's clear, you know, they already know that they discuss that. Yeah. But yes. So what we want as professionals in the field, and medical professionals as well, is skin-to-skin contact with the intended parent. Yeah, that makes sense as a surrogate. And so usually the contract says that the intended parents are allowed in the delivery room, unless medical, you know, regulations don't only allow one person, then usually the surrogate gets to choose who she wants to be her support person.

Amanda: And then, yeah, and then once the baby is born, how does the legal process kind of pick up from there to finalize, or are there other, like, legal steps that we haven't talked about along the way that we should discuss as well?

Catherine: We should discuss them because we haven't touched on them yet. And then California, there's not after the baby's born.

Amanda: Okay. All right. Yeah. I'd love to talk about the legal process that aside just from the surrogacy process,

Catherine: yes. So, I mean, it belongs to the surrogacy process. In a way, once the, as I mentioned earlier, first step, well, if we need an egg donation agreement, the first step would be to draft an egg donation agreement, and then have the egg donor, you know, undergo the egg retrieval procedure, embryos are created, and then they're matched with the surrogate. So then the most important first step with surrogacy would be to draft the gestational carrier agreement. Everyone negotiates, and then once it's signed, the surrogate will be so-called legally cleared, which means that the clinic can reach out to her and prepare the embryo transfer. So she gets a calendar when she starts her meds and all that. Once she's pregnant, we usually start between the 14th and 18th weeks of pregnancy. We want to get started on the pentacle establishment process. So the court pleadings are very important, and I think in a way you can compare them to an adoption decree, but we call them parentage orders, okay? And so in California, and actually in many states within the United States, you can get a so-called pre-birth judgment or pre-birth order, so we can get that court order before the baby is even born. And that court order will declare the intended parents the legal parents and terminate the surrogate parents' rights to the child. And if she's married, you know her spouse's parents. All right, so for the child, it also instructs how to fill out the birth certificate to ensure that the intended parents are listed on it right away. And the surrogate does not show at all. Oh, wow. So we start all this between the 14th and the 18th. We aim to file everything by the 24th week. So normally, by the 28th or 30th week, when you have the court order, it's suspended, and it'll kick into effect as soon as the baby's born.

Amanda: Oh, wow. Okay. So that's how it works in California.

Catherine: Yeah, there are a couple of states within the United States where they expect post-birth orders. Florida would be one; Idaho—I can think of a couple. Right. But for California, we can have our pre-birth order, and then we'll get to go. Now we just have to wait for the baby to arrive. Wow.

Amanda: Wow. And this may be putting you on the spot. So if so, I really apologize. I have heard that in some states, surrogacy is not allowed. Is that correct?

Catherine: That is correct. Okay. Yeah. Michigan is one of them.

Amanda: I'm really okay. Oklahoma was one that sprang to mind because we were considering that as a route for us.

Catherine: Surrogates are allowed in Oklahoma; they just have very specific laws. So what I just explained for California and how to apply in Oklahoma is that you have a gestational carrier agreement, but this is only valid if it's actually been validated by an Oklahoma court. So the surrogate is not allowed to start the embryo transfer or anything until the Oklahoma courts have actually validated the decision to carry the agreement. And then you still have to go through the parental establishment phase.

Amanda: Okay, that makes sense. All right.

Catherine: And at this point, what I can also mention is that we are licensed in California, but we also teach in a lot of other states; my colleague has, you know, we're not just based there. I mean, we're based in California; all of us are licensed in California, but we also have a few colleagues that are licensed in numerous other states and are in the process of getting licensed there. So that's why I'm familiar with the other states as well.

Amanda: Awesome.I was just about to ask you because it sounds like you're really familiar with a lot of state laws.

Catherine: I'm also licensed in Germany, but that doesn't matter. But you know, it really does vary from state to state. Oklahoma is that they do allow surrogacy; it's not that they don't, but Michigan, for instance, would be the one where they have the case. I don't know if you've heard of their baby M case, where the surrogate decided that she wanted to keep the baby. So she went to Michigan and delivered the baby there. And because they don't, you know, recognize that surrogacy and gestational surrogacy agreements are not enforceable, she ended up with the baby, and the intended parents did not have any recourse. So yeah, you want to if you're in Michigan; it doesn't mean that you cannot have a child through surrogacy. But you need to make sure that the surrogate is not in Michigan; might you want her to be in a different surrogate state?

Navigating Surrogacy: The Importance of Specialized Legal Guidance and Cross-State Considerations

Amanda: Yeah, for sure. And that brings me to a point that I, and I'm sure my audience gets tired of hearing me say, but it's really important that you have a licensed professional that specializes in surrogacy law help guide you through this particular aspect of knowing what you're considering to form your family. I often, you know, have people reach out to me and say, Well, okay, so and so is a lawyer. I'm like, "No, no, not all lawyers specialize in the same field. It's like you go to different types of doctors for a reason. You don't go to a foot doctor for your eyes. Right. You go. Going to the right lawyer for your particular needs is really important. And so true. Insurance—they're licensed in that state—is really important.

Catherine: Absolutely. Yes. It's so true. And I mean, there are a lot of attorneys. It's a niche field, right? There aren't many; it's not like estate attorneys, right? But there's attorneys in every state. Is there a specialist, and do you need to work with someone who specializes in the field because otherwise, it's just not? I've seen contracts that were drafted by attorneys who are not normally practicing in the field. And it's just a complete nightmare. And it just complicates everything for you once you get to the face of the paranormal establishment process, where you want to have that judgment that declares you the legal parents, which is, at the end of the day, really the most important document of all.

Amanda: "For sure. So we've talked a lot about, you know, kind of the legal agreements, and kind of, in my mind, under the assumption that you're kind of in the state of California and maybe your surrogates are in the state of California, I know that in the adoption world, if you're crossing state lines, then there becomes kind of a different set of legal requirements around the interstate compact for the placement of children. And then there become different kinds of, I don't know, nuances, if you will, as it relates to where the baby is born versus where you live and what you're allowed to consider as the state to finalize the adoption. How does it work in surrogacy if you're across state lines from each other?

Catherine: So that's a really good question. If we have a surrogate that is not in California, that does not necessarily mean that we can't draft the agreement. And because at the end of the day, we will, I mean, let's not talk about, you know, being licensed in other states; let's just focus on California. At the end of the day, we need to figure out where we want to file the court documents. And where is it going to be the most efficient, the easiest, without, you know, pushing back in any kind of way? And California is very surrogacy-friendly. So it is always a good choice. And so in California, you can file the court pleadings if either the intended parents live in California or executed the agreement in California, the surrogate lives in California, executed the agreement in California, the child will be born in California, or if the IVF physician or the medical procedures happen in California. Oh, okay. So basically, as long as you have an IVF and the embryo transfer happens in California, you can technically file the case in California. It doesn't always make sense, right? Because you also need to find it, it needs to be a state. Let's say I'm going to use Oregon as an example. Oregon recognizes California court orders; they don't have any specific regulations. That pertains to surrogacy laws that we don't have in California, right? So Oregon's surrogate could technically be represented by us. I mean, not asked, but I mean, we could represent the intended parents and follow, you know, our court order in California and have it recognized in Oregon.

Amanda: Okay. Yeah. So there are definitely still some nuances, but maybe not quite.

Catherine: Depending on the state So if it's a Florida square, good. You might want to, you know, adjust it a little bit. In the contract, you can't just say that the governing jurisdiction is going to be California and the state where the surrogate lives or will deliver the child. So you always want to have both, just in case. But yeah, it is possible in California to do so. Okay, well, that's really not always feasible. It's also really case-by-case; everything is case-by-case at this point. There's no way I can say, "Oh, you can always do it this way. You can always do it that way. It's just not possible. Yeah.

Amanda: Which, honestly, is what led me to say, "This is not legal advice, because it is possible for it to be. It's really just intended to give you the questions to start asking and thinking about, you know, those types of things, because every case is different. And people will show him my DMs, and they'll have questions where we always think first—I'm not an attorney. But here are the five questions that I often have and the one sentence you provided me that you need to know before you go talk to an attorney:

Catherine: Yeah, exactly.

Amanda: That's good. So earlier, you mentioned international law, or you mentioned international law as part of the law firm. Is surrogacy also international from that perspective? And can you talk a little bit more about that as well?

Catherine: So it's funny because just a few weeks ago, I was contacted by potential clients who thought that because we have the word "international" in our name, we also facilitate international surrogacy, let's say, in South America, which is not the case. We are taking lessons here in the US, except for me in Germany, but again, that doesn't really count. Because I don't practice in Germany anymore. International means that we have a lot of international intended parents, so what we do is work with them. They have a surrogate here in the United States. We get the parentage order, and then they fly home, and a lot of times, surrogacy is not recognized in their home country. So they need to work with an attorney back home to have this recognized, and we coordinate all of that with the attorneys back home for these intended parents.

Amanda: That's really interesting. So are they working more as kind of like an immigration attorney back in their home country to bring the child home…

Catherine: What is the attorney's favorite sentence? It depends. So, yeah, yes, they do, for instance, but if we talk about that in most European countries, right, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, all of those, they need to work with an attorney because they really have to get that help. Not my case, my money, mainly the right California court order, but the court order, they need to have that recognized back home so that they can actually establish parentage back home, be listed as parents out there, and also get the citizenship for their child back home. And that's usually with attorneys.

Amanda: That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. Thank you for broadening my horizons; it's pretty interesting.

Catherine: You're very welcome. I actually love that part of my work, you know, to coordinate with the international attorneys, and then we sometimes have to add language into our parentage orders to make sure that it gets recognized back home and in their country. It's a very fascinating aspect of our work.

Amanda: I've learned so much already. But I would love to know if there are any other steps in the process or tips that you have for our audience. If they're considering surrogacy or research that they might do, I would just love to hear about any other kinds of blessings or knowledge that you'd be willing to share with our audience.

Catherine: Absolutely. I think what's really important are the three A's in the surrogacy process: you need an agency; it's actually not the three A's; I'm sorry, there we go. It's been a long day. The second A would be in German arts with an English is a doctor, right? You need an IVF physician. And you need an attorney. So I think these are if you have and you need to set all of this up, and then you'll know that you need this. You need to have a good IVF physician that can, you know, put you in the right direction and not have you undergo numerous procedures and, you know, failed embryo transfers. You want someone who knows what he's doing, right? So you don't, you know, waste time and money. You want the agency to match you with a good surrogate and provide a good support system. It's both like adoption, right? It's big; it takes a village, right? So the agency is there to support you and structure everything. And then you need the attorney, obviously, to make sure that everything is legally sound and that you get that court order at the end that declares you the legal parents of the child.

Amanda: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And, you know, I hadn't thought about the whole IVF doctor aspect of it in terms of the success rate, which, you're right, is really critical. I know that, through my own IVF journey, that was something that was really important to me; we researched different doctors and things of that nature. And I was fortunate enough to have medical coverage at that time, which helped to cover some of the cost of that. But when you go on an intimate surrogacy journey, that's not always the case.

Catherine: That's not exactly so you want to have someone who's familiar with it, who's working with surrogacy, surrogates; it's also if you just choose any IVF physician, not the same, not the same, you know, so all of this, you need to keep in mind, and you can start with any of these three, the right agency attorney or IVF physician, and then they will guide you in the right direction; they will be able to give you recommendations for agencies, attorneys, and IVF physicians, but I think that's the most important you have those three in place. And then, you know, you're good to go.

Amanda: Yeah, that's really important. I also personally believe that finding the right partners that are a good fit for you does not mean budgeting; of course, budgeting is always an aspect of most things, but having the right communication style and feeling a sense of comfort allows you to ask the tough questions and not be afraid to have that open dialogue. You know, as you go through the journey, it is really important. I think with every single partner you have in your journey, for sure. I absolutely agree.

Catherine: And I have to say that I've actually seen it with IVF physicians the most: that my clients, you know, work with one, and then they say, You know what? We switched IVF physicians; we feel better now; we feel more, you know, taken care of or less." Sometimes they don't want so much; they want to have. You know, everyone's different, right? But yes, exactly. You need to find the right fit, and it doesn't hurt to shop around and, you know, meet different people and talk to different people. I would also recommend that if you get recommendations for an agency or for an IVF physician, really take those seriously, because, you know, I've had clients that just choose whatever's the cheapest and who ever advertises the best, and I told them, you know, I've never heard of these people. And I've, you know, personally worked in this field for six years—almost six years. Our law firm has been around for, you know, over 20 years. You know, we're one of the pioneers in the field. Wow, our senior partner has three kids through surrogacy, so we know—you know, we know the field. And so if we've never heard of them, maybe it's not the best idea. And that doesn't go just for us. I mean, anyone who's a professional in the field or anyone who you could find on the academy website, right? So if it's someone that you haven't heard of before, I would stay away just because, more likely than not, you'll have issues afterwards. You know, when it comes to the nitty gritty of things that I would like to give to, you know, potential intended parents,

Amanda: Yeah, I would say that recommendations to me in this kind of world really go tenfold right versus abnormal recommendations. Because if so, you're likely going through this for the first time, right? Especially if you're watching or listening to this, you're trying to learn all you can from a sponge perspective, and I really believe we're stronger together as a community, right? When you share and learn from other people's experiences, we're all going to have different experiences because we're all unique and different individuals. But if I can learn that, I can, you know, maybe help pass that along to someone else and have a little bit, you know, more positive experience or different experience along the way, which is really the whole intent of why I started this or do these, you know, interviews, early in the mornings and late at night, and those types of things, is to share that knowledge because it's really important for us as an entire community. So it's really awesome.

Catherine: I absolutely agree with you. And I think it's great what you're doing.

Amanda: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. It definitely makes my heart happy. For sure. Again, this conversation has been really enlightening. Are there any final tips that you'd like to share with the audience, as they, you know, consider, you know, either adoption or assisted reproductive technologies, and for me, their family?

Catherine: Um, based on what we've talked about, you know, before we met, I think surrogacy should definitely be a viable option for people. You know, I understand that adoption is a very lengthy process. It's very hard on everybody. I'm not saying surrogacy isn't. Not at all, but it's an option. And it's worth looking into it. I think.

Amanda: I really agree that it is not something that always comes to mind. But I do think that when you are considering all the different avenues to form your family, it's, it's worth having a conversation about,

Catherine: It's worth having a conversation about it, thinking about it, and looking into it a little bit just to get a better overview. I mean, like, today and go from there and just keep it in the back of your mind. If, after a while, you decide, "Well, this adoption is not really going anywhere, maybe we should, you know, consider surrogacy," And what I also wanted to mention is that we do offer initial consultations at no cost. So if anyone wants to reach out and has a few more specific questions, please feel free, you know, to contact me. I'm not trying to say, "Oh, you should come work with me. I'm just saying if you have any further information or, you know, questions and need more information, I'm more than happy to talk about it. Because I'm a firm believer in surrogacy, I've mentioned a few times that I come from Germany. Surrogacy is what you get if you go there, and it breaks my heart. And I really believe in it. And I love that I work in this field, and I can make this happen. And I can, you know, help parents become parents. So feel free to reach out if you have any other questions.

Amanda: That's awesome. Thank you, Catherine, for that offer for our audience. And we'll be sure to link to all of your information in the show notes. So wherever you're watching or listening to this, just simply scroll down, and you'll be able to get to Catherine's law firm's website and then be able to reach out and schedule an appointment from there. And Katherine, we really, really appreciate you taking your time this evening to give us an overview, educate us, and just make our community stronger. We're all grateful for all you do.

Catherine: Well, I appreciate you having me on tonight and sharing my knowledge. Thank you.

Amanda: I trust that my conversation with Katherine was really informative. I know I learned a lot about the surrogacy process and have a better understanding of not only the different terminology but also the process itself and some of the nuances between the different states when it comes to surrogacy. If you are looking for additional resources or really want to learn more about surrogacy, I really do hope that you take Catherine up on her offer to have a one-on-one meeting.

You can find out more information from Catherine in the shownotes, so you can reach out to her directly or schedule some time to talk with her or her wonderful partners in her firm. Remember, my friend, anything's possible with the right plan and support, and I'm here with you every single step of the way. I'll see you soon.